Radios

[g4hlf]

Lesley, I can do that for you, which HYT's do you have? I supplied 6 TC-700's to Kent (Dave Ryan).

You already have a Business Radio Licence (Kent group) so there is no need to purchase another. The BR licence allows the radio's to be used for the purpose the licence was requested (training?). In the extreme scenario you could have say 10 groups of 10 people at different locations all "training" at the same time covered by the same licence assuming they are all associated with Kent LSDogs.

Regards,

Paul

[warenvdm]

Paul 100% agree with you. If they have a license already, thats great! But it is worth pointing out the license does not give them access to LANDSAR frequencies. So I guess there are 2 different discussions here, one about Business Radio license which is 3 channels on the ALSAR16 band plan (10,11 & 16). And the 2nd topic is the remaining 13 channels on the ALSAR16 band plan which a Business Radio license does not entitle them to use. For people that dont understand the licensing side of things, this can get confusing.

[g4hlf]

Waren true and certainly worth pointing out that the BR licence only applies to channels 10, 11 and 16 if the unit has been programmed to the ALSAR16 2010 channel plan.

All dog unit I have seen to date typically have their radio's programmed in line with the above. I presume the dog units will use their radio's on the ALSAR channels when requested to do so by an ALSAR unit on joint training/shout?

The discussion about should they be programmed or not is a difficult one. I guess technically no one should be carrying radio equipment that is capable of transmitting on channels they are not authorised/licensed to use.

I don't believe there is an definitive answer for the above so I take the approach that the radio is programmed & ready, I use it for doggy training on 10, 11 and 16 and on the ALSAR channels when requested by SEBEV/BSAR etc.

Regards,

Paul

[StuartL]

Just to elaborate on Warren's post a little:

Our channels 10, 11 and 16 (which we often refer to as the training channels) are part of the UK Simple Licence (AKA Simple UK Light) which allows 5W transmit using handhelds or mobile ONLY on a set of fifteen frequencies. To transmit using a base station or at more than 5W requires a separate licence. I presume that Berkshire SAR Dogs has a separate licence for the base station we have to allow use of it legally. These channels are completely separate from the other channels which come from the Marine bands.

The business radio licence for the "Simple UK Light" channels is very very cheap. Business radio licences to allow base stations, other frequencies etc are also available and the costs vary considerably. You can purchase these licences as individuals, charities or corporate entities and OFCOM don't mind.

Channels 1-9 and 12-15 are Marine band channels. You're not allowed to use these bands at all in-land and it's regulated by the coast guard on behalf of OFCOM. I presume (though don't know) that because of ALSAR's close relationship with MR and CG that there's an official or unofficial allowance to use these bands. We as individuals cannot obtain a licence to use these frequencies unless we use them off-shore. I believe that this is one of the things Daryl was working on trying to get LSDogs integrated with ALSAR to allow the use of these frequencies for non-ALSAR callouts and/or training. ALSAR allocate subsets of their frequency allocations to different regions to minimise crosstalk and radio pollution. ALSAR refer to these allocations as Team Working Channels and without one (or more) of these LSDogs/Berkshire SAR Dogs units won't be able to use the ALSAR frequencies unless under the instruction/control of an ALSAR unit.

[g4hlf]

Stuart,

I would expect the Berks SAR dogs "control" to be covered by the simple BR licence. The licence states "the use of base stations is not permitted" but I would class the "control" as a mobile. A base station to me would be a permanent installation, mains supply with fixed antenna.

So long at the mobile set-up does not exceed 5W ERP and the equipment conforms to RTTE directive then it should be fully compliant.

Regards,

Paul

[StuartL]

So long at the mobile set-up does not exceed 5W ERP and the equipment conforms to RTTE directive then it should be fully compliant.

I think it's the power output that's different, although I don't know what the programming has set it to. The ICom 1010 we use is capable of 25W...

[g4hlf]

Yes, if the output is set at approx 5W at the antenna connector and taking into account feeder loss and antenna gain you will end up with an ERP in the region of 5W.

Regards,

Paul

[mark_n]

Guys,

This has turned into a bit of a mega post, so I thought I'd try and answer some of the questions raised ;

You're not allowed to use these bands at all in-land and it's regulated by the coast guard on behalf of OFCOM. I presume (though don't know) that because of ALSAR's close relationship with MR and CG that there's an official or unofficial allowance to use these bands

The UK SAR frequencies are controlled by the The SAR Communications Working Group (CWG) who are a standing committee
of the UK SAR Operators Group. The CWG is responsible for exercising administrative control over the use of the UK land SAR channels.
Membership of the CWG consists of representatives from the following bodies:
(i) Association of Chief Police Officers of England and Wales (ACPO)
(ii) Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland (ACPOS)
(iii) Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA)
(iv) Ministry of Defence (MoD)
(v) Mountain Rescue England and Wales (MR-EW)
(vi) Mountain Rescue Committee of Scotland (MRC of S)
(vii) Scottish Government (Change and Corporate Services)
(viii) Ambulance Service Association (ASA)
(ix) Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA)
(x) Office of Communications (Ofcom)
(xi) National Police Improvement Agency (NPIA)
(xii) Royal National Lifeboat Institution (RNLI)
Other organisations or experts may be invited to attend from time to time.
Further information may be found on the UK SAR Web Site – http://www.uk-sar.org.uk

LSDOGS do not directly have access to these frequencies, we use them under direction of ALSAR teams. Hence we can only use UK-SAR frequencies when we are on an incident. Likewise LSDogs and their constituent units do not have official Callsigns.

So long at the mobile set-up does not exceed 5W ERP and the equipment conforms to RTTE directive then it should be fully compliant.

I think it's the power output that's different, although I don't know what the programming has set it to. The ICom 1010 we use is capable of 25W...

Berkshire Search and Rescue radios are programmed to comply with the UK SAR CWG...FULL STOP
They are all programmed with ALSAR 16 and are re-programmed on a regular basis to ensure that all programming is accurate.

The discussion about should they be programmed or not is a difficult one. I guess technically no one should be carrying radio equipment that is capable of transmitting on channels they are not authorised/licensed to use.

Hi Paul... I believe that the legal stance on this (If I remember this from my RAE..many years ago) is that you may carry a device that you do not have authorisation to use, it is the actual usage of the device which breaks the law......but I may be wrong.

Hope this helps

Mark
Comms Group Berkshire SAR Dogs
(I used to be G1THT...long ago)

[mark_n]

After my last post I thought that I'd try and bring this thread back on track.

Lesley,

Are you happy that your question has been answered?
Do you or your group need any more assistance on comms or radios?

If so I'm happy to help out.

Mark

[Lesley33]

Many thanks. I always did find this confusing!!

I had been in touch with with Ofcom and they said I would need a Business Licence to use the three non SAR channels, which is what I will get; but I thought our Unit radios had been programmed to the SAR channels; maybe I'm wrong.